With the new push to force illegals out of our country, I am wondering what will happen to those who have become disabled due to auto and work accidents. These individuals are stuck because they are here illegally but returning them to a 3rd world country will definitely jeopardize their physical state.
My understanding is that United Spinal among other organizations are pushing for our government to have mercy on these individuals and their caregivers; mothers, spouses, and siblings.
Do you have any thoughts on how these individuals should be treated with regard to the current immigration policy?
Post by kilg0retr0ut on Feb 21, 2017 5:53:48 GMT -8
The key word is illegal. They may be going back to the country they left. If you break a law don't be surprised when your held accountable. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'd be doing anything I could to provide a better life for my family. Sometimes I get stuck in the grey areas.
You have posed a real moral dilemma with your post, Anna. From what I’ve heard and seen of president Trump, and you must remember that I’m English and get my information from media coverage, I find it difficult to imagine his administration having mercy on illegal immigrants, even if they are ill. The same question could apply to many countries all over Europe. What do you do with asylum seekers, injured or not, who don’t lodge their application for asylum in the first democratic country they enter? Very many asylum seekers and economic migrants want to get to the UK. Many travel the length of Europe to get here. Is it wrong to bar these people? Is it wrong to bar unaccompanied child migrants? Is it even more wrong to bar the sick and injured? The UK health service, which is free at the point of entry, is unable to adequately cope with the existing population let alone any more. Housing is in crisis. Schools are full. I really hate the fact that this post sounds political and biased against illegals.
We have a moral responsibility to care for others but it comes with a cost. It depends how many people we can absorb into the country. Already living standards are low for many people. If you dramatically dilute the amount of capital in a given country, people’s standard of living will fall. It is a real moral dilemma this one.
On a personal level, would you lower your standard of living in order to help somebody else? If you put this questions to individuals, what would they say? Instead governments make decisions on our behalf, thus absolving us of any moral or legal responsibility. But we do have a responsibility. We have a responsibility to care for our fellow man. However too much caring can lead to biological suicide. You can care and care, absorb people from all over the world, until you have nothing left to give - no work, homes, schools, healthcare or medicines (look at what's happening in Greece). Yes we’d all be equal but we’d all have very little — little or nothing. How Christ-like do you want to be?
My personal view is that America could afford to be a little more compassionate. I can already hear howls of protest and 'what the f*** do you know about America?'.
What a dilemma and what a wonderful post to ponder.
Mikeq said it all so well. What I'll say is mostly "supplemental" to his very well-thought-out comment. Two things did pop into my mind as I was reading this Thread. Here's the first. It costs money for a person here in the US illegally to apply for citizenship.
Secondly,...and believe me it hurts to even think back on hearing these type of stories that I heard during my almost twenty years of living in a third world country,...some very poor and desperate people will maim themselves or their child for a financial reward. Yes, this is horrible, but it is something people have done in the past. For a prize such as "sure citizenship", some would do this in the future. Lawmakers will be aware of this possibility. No one wants to encourage such a tragic choice.
Of course, Callifana's question was basically posing the question of what's to become of those here illegally who are 'already' disabled.
Post by kilg0retr0ut on Feb 21, 2017 8:16:09 GMT -8
What's your point about cost to apply vintage ? I'm also not sure what self- maiming has to do with this. Good post mikeq Its hard to wrap you ahead around the problem. We are running out of resources.
If US immigration policy does not provide lenience for under 18s entering from Central America (usually because they have been threatened by gangs at home), we certainly will not see special treatment for disabled illegals. I personally have no problem with illegals being here but I object to media outlets who use the word "immigrant" instead of "illegal immigrant". That is deceptive and muddies the debate. I live in southern California and do business with illegals whenever I can. Most are very hard workers and self-starters.
it should be decided on a case by case determination. it costs money to take care of illegal immigrants and US shouldn't pay for everyone even if disabled. if I was treated correctly by the healthcare system I would have a more liberal viewpoint. but if America cant help its own correctly the US has no obligation to help illegal immigrants.
If US immigration policy does not provide lenience for under 18s entering from Central America (usually because they have been threatened by gangs at home), we certainly will not see special treatment for disabled illegals. I personally have no problem with illegals being here but I object to media outlets who use the word "immigrant" instead of "illegal immigrant". That is deceptive and muddies the debate. I live in southern California and do business with illegals whenever I can. Most are very hard workers and self-starters.
Good point. As an interpreter, I saw this myself...terrified women, fleeing gangs, but being accused of coming here simply for "personal reasons".
The key word is illegal. They may be going back to the country they left. If you break a law don't be surprised when your held accountable. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'd be doing anything I could to provide a better life for my family. Sometimes I get stuck in the grey areas.
Wow kilg0retr0ut , I am surprised by your comment given your statements about Trump. Are you saying you are in agreement with the following result?
An illegal immigrant worked as a tree cutter and fell out of a tree and become a quadriplegic here in this country. By your comment, they should be held accountable and be forced to return to their 3rd world home country. Even though there is a high probability that this person will most definitely die because his country doesn't have the wherewithal to care for his needs.
Inspiration comes and goes but when it arrives, oh how I cherish it.
If US immigration policy does not provide lenience for under 18s entering from Central America (usually because they have been threatened by gangs at home), we certainly will not see special treatment for disabled illegals. I personally have no problem with illegals being here but I object to media outlets who use the word "immigrant" instead of "illegal immigrant". That is deceptive and muddies the debate. I live in southern California and do business with illegals whenever I can. Most are very hard workers and self-starters.
I hope this is true:
According to immigration attorney Matthew Kolken, ... "After taking office, Trump issued a memorandum to the Justice Department effectively ending the Obama-era practice of prioritizing unaccompanied children for deportation."
The key word is illegal. They may be going back to the country they left. If you break a law don't be surprised when your held accountable. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'd be doing anything I could to provide a better life for my family. Sometimes I get stuck in the grey areas.
Wow kilg0retr0ut , I am surprised by your comment given your statements about Trump. Are you saying you are in agreement with the following result?
An illegal immigrant worked as a tree cutter and fell out of a tree and become a quadriplegic here in this country. By your comment, they should be held accountable and be forced to return to their 3rd world home country. Even though there is a high probability that this person will most definitely die because his country doesn't have the wherewithal to care for his needs.
The key word is illegal. A arborist is a highly trained, not many fall from tree's. You don't pick up a day job as an arborist. But lets say he/she are a spotter and a limb falls on them. Yes, I'd send them packing as well as the employer that hired he/she. I would also send their caregivers, aunts, uncles, parents, brothers and sisters that are here illegally too. What irritates me the most is the employers who hire these people illegally. I'm a meanie I suppose. Wow, your right, I do sound like a Trump supporter. Egads!
Post by kilg0retr0ut on Feb 25, 2017 6:32:31 GMT -8
Nice set-up califanna, I thought I answer anyways. This isn't as easy, corrupt politicians let this happen for cheap labor, so we bare responsibility as well. I wished we enforced the law to begin with. I'm a old white guy, it's hard to unlearn the old ways once they've been drummed into your head for so long, but I try.
Nice set-up califanna , I thought I answer anyways. This isn't as easy, corrupt politicians let this happen for cheap labor, so we bare responsibility as well. I wished we enforced the la5w to begin with. I'm a old white guy, it's hard to unlearn the old ways once they've been drummed into your head for so long, but I try.
I agree Kilg, if the US would enforce the laws as written that are already there, none of this would even be in question. And no one can say it's impossible as it was done back in the 30s or 40s, we deported around 10million illegals and our military was us3d to help round them up and get rid of them. I'm all for immigration, however it has to be regulated and kept under control.
Nice set-up califanna , I thought I answer anyways. This isn't as easy, corrupt politicians let this happen for cheap labor, so we bare responsibility as well. I wished we enforced the la5w to begin with. I'm a old white guy, it's hard to unlearn the old ways once they've been drummed into your head for so long, but I try.
I agree Kilg, if the US would enforce the laws as written that are already there, none of this would even be in question. And no one can say it's impossible as it was done back in the 30s or 40s, we deported around 10million illegals and our military was us3d to help round them up and get rid of them. I'm all for immigration, however it has to be regulated and kept under control.
I thought over the entire package of Trump policies and recent practices and managed to simplify the picture for myself. "AMERICA FIRST" is the unifying theme, just as stated. This administration seeks to return to a time when the USA dominated world trade and military position but part of the strategy is to unify it's base of support (white working class) with rhetoric that blames all current problems on illegal immigrants, liberalism (read compassion for any underdog not of the white working class), NAFTA, and the free press. Trump calls the independent press enemies of the nation.
TJ, to add more context to your comment, yes the US deported illegal (overwhelmingly Mexicans) in the 30s and 40s as a response to the Depression. In the 50s The Government set up a "Guest Worker" program to again import many thousands of laborers to work in the fields in the West Coast states. Invite them when you need them, kick them out when you don't.
Today's situation is quite different for several reasons but I do not want to debate them as I see them as distraction. Mostly we have this anti-immigrant emphasis for the purpose of distracting the population from some key elements of Administration policy that are dangerous to the nation and some that are unconstitutional. The quantity of illegals in this country is no threat. They do jobs white working class voters refuse and they work very hard.
The US is not endangered by Mexican immigration. Immigration from that country has fallen way off because norther Mexico has become more prosperous. If they tax Mexican imports that situation will reverse and many more Mexicans would try to sneak in. Immigration from Central America continues due to the lawlessness there. Whatever solutions there may be will come from within those countries but will be a long time coming. Immigration from Mid-Eastern countries is a thorny issue not easily settled. But Trump all talks about and is pushing is a "wall" and tight entry controls at airports. That is an expensive talking point but symbolically very effective. Trump wants to tax Mexican imports as another symbolic talking point but one effect will be a chaotic situation for the US aerospace automotive and industries whose supply chains are now extremely complex and international. It has taken many years to nurture them and get them functional so that US based manufacturing is efficient and predictable, which means competitiveness and lowest cost. For example, Boeing's supply chain for a single airliner has more than 50,000 suppliers world-wide of individual parts. The cannot be changed easily and any disruption through taxation will price the airliners out of very effective competition from Airbus. For years airplane sale have accounted for the biggest chunk of manufactured export from the US. This represents a big chunk of high-paying jobs, both technical and working-class. The Trump administration does not care as long as they push their 'America First" agenda. Consequences do not matter much to them. It's a 'feel good' abstraction like the concept of "master race".
This last week's news has leaned heavily on Trump's accusation that 'liberal' media is an enemy of America. The Constitution set up 3 bureaucracies to balance one another and prevent any of them from gaining dictatorial power. The Judicial branch tends to be balanced at this point but can most certainly be manipulated by consistently appointing judges willing to support the agenda of the Administration. The Legislative branch is presently dominated by Administration loyalists who are so disorganized they cannot present proposals of their own. The Executive is Trump and his people, of course.
The framers of the constitution carefully protected a free press as a means of getting information to citizens which is not controlled by the government.. Trump is working effectively, for now, to eviscerate the free press by limiting access to briefings to only media loyal to him, and by his broad accusations that non-loyal media is nothing but 'fake news'. They are enemies of the people- "so sad". He is following practice honed by the Nazi Party, the Chinese Communist party, Russia under Putin and Turkey's Erdorgan. If one proclaims a lie loud enough and often enough not only will most people believe it, but that lie will effectively distract the population, voters, from noticing the things done which the vast majority would not support. I refer to the destruction of American influence in the world of Nations, US military superiority, and Affordable Care insurance.
More people support some form of Affordable care than do not, so the Administration's strategy is to let Congress doodle over it without resolution as insurance companies pull out of the market due to its unpredictability (and high cost, of course). The lie is to loudly proclaim there will be insurance for everyone, while in truth they let the idea and present system die. This is an ancient political strategy I call "Look over there!" Or listen to what I say, not what I do.
In sum, I see the immigration debate as distraction, along with Administration statements about health insurance. We will see in this forum the effects of Admin policy killing a great many Medicaid services. People like us will die while Trump proclaims "health care for everyone", though he may change his tune to one expressed above- "health care is not a "right". Which is correct- it is, or was, a kindness.
"America First" will prove a slogan under which US power on the world stage declines faster yet and our military preparedness may also take a nose-dive. "America First" will not produce more manufacturing jobs, though Trump will loudly claim any new jobs created are his doing and add to greater numbers. That will be a lie. Numbers will decline as competitiveness decreases, trade and currency wars will increase. Claims of success but bad results. The free press which ought to monitor things and inform the public will be controlled or marginalized. That's my take.